From davegaines at aol.com  Wed Oct  1 14:01:22 2008
From: davegaines at aol.com (David Gaines)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 14:01:22 -0400
Subject: [Membroj] Fwd: From David Solomon and other Esperanto group members
	on LinkedIn.com
Message-ID: <b96f429c0810011101t2309d84re025b36ec42b402e@mail.gmail.com>

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Esperanto Group Members <group-digests at linkedin.com>
Date: 2008/10/1
Subject: From David Solomon and other Esperanto group members on
LinkedIn.com
To: David Gaines <davidrgaines at gmail.com>


 LinkedIn From Esperanto Group Members

Today's new discussions from Esperanto group members.

 Discussions from today:

*David Solomon*
*Bonvenon kaj nia celo*

Bonvenon al niaj novaj membroj, ni multe kreskas kaj mi volas inviti al vi
cxiuj ke vi invitu aliajn gekontaktojn, geamikojn Esperantistajn ke ili
alugxu al nia grupo. Kiam ni havas 100 membrojn mi intencas krei
novajxleteron kaj ke ni ankaux kreu interretan pagxon. Dankon al vi cxiuj
pro via subteno.
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From davegaines at aol.com  Thu Oct 23 14:37:55 2008
From: davegaines at aol.com (David Gaines)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 14:37:55 -0400
Subject: [Membroj] Nova revuo rilate al planitaj/artefaritaj lingvoj......
Message-ID: <b96f429c0810231137g192b5965gc5e5bb018346ce9e@mail.gmail.com>

......nomita "Invented Languages" - estas mempublikigita fare de hobiisto.
Bona kaj interesa hobio, lau mi!  Vidu cxe:
http://www.lulu.com/content/2496244

DG
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From quillpower at cox.net  Wed Oct 29 21:48:47 2008
From: quillpower at cox.net (Jim Ryan)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 21:48:47 -0400
Subject: [Membroj] Mort-al Foot in Mouth
Message-ID: <4909127F.3000208@cox.net>

Another entry in the long, strange saga of the (mis-)(ab-)use of 
"Esperanto" by non-Esperantists to mean heaven knows what. 

This one is from a book I'm reading, A Great Idea at the Time: The Rise, 
Fall and Curious Afterlife of the Great Books.  Great Books scholar and 
booster Mortimer Adler is describing his own background and temperament 
employing various contrasts, including:

"Jewish and German by ancestry but anti-Semitic and Esperanto by nature."

Huh?  In context, and knowing Adler, I think he means "not bound by 
Jewish or German (or presumably any other) culture or traditions, but 
rather international and cosmpolitan."

But what a way to put it!  "Anti-Semitic and Esperanto"!  What an ironic 
turn of phrase, especially given how Zamenhof was intellectually 
nurtured by Jewish traditions, how he was a Yiddish scholar as well as a 
general polyglot and linguist, and how Homaranismo began as Hilelismo.  
And how the Nazis persecuted Esperanto as being a tool of the Jews, and 
how Zamenhof's children died in concentration camps, etc. etc.  
Esperanto was one of the many gifts of Jewry to the world. 

"Anti-Semitic and Esperanto" is the most ridiculous pairing since ... 
well, I'll let you all supply better examples of rhetorical "odd couples." 



                                                                        
                                                                        
                                                                        
                                                                        
                                                                        
                                        


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From rdumain at autodidactproject.org  Thu Oct 30 00:08:55 2008
From: rdumain at autodidactproject.org (Ralph Dumain)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 23:08:55 -0500
Subject: [Membroj] Mort-al Foot in Mouth
In-Reply-To: <4909127F.3000208@cox.net>
References: <4909127F.3000208@cox.net>
Message-ID: <E1KvNtn-0001tK-5Z@elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Thanks for the info. I should put this book on my reading list, given 
my interest in intellectual history, including the history of 
middlebrow culture and ideological conflict.  It's one more mark 
against Adler as a first-class asshole. However non-literally one 
interprets Adler's expression, it's pretty ridiculous. By 
"Esperanto", even if Adler means not strictly national, he doesn't go 
beyond the bounds of his fetish for what he thinks of as western 
civilization. As for "anti-Semitic", Adler's affinity for 
Catholicism, his hatred of the modern world, and his retrograde 
ideology explains this expression completely. Jewishness has been 
associated with hated modernity, rationalism, liberalism, radicalism, 
and democracy at least since the latter part of the 19th century, on 
the threshold of  a new stage of both capitalism and anti-Semitism. 
That Adler would turn against the progressive ideals of much of the 
Jewish intelligentsia explains his phraseology.  On the other hand, 
the use of "Esperanto" in this way as an adjective is not only 
ungrammatical, it goes contrary to Adler's organic conservative 
ideology, which in his time would likely have abominated Esperanto, 
which is arguably the progeny of the Jewish Enlightenment (Haskalah).

One must look at the role of Adler and his pals at the University of 
Chicago, as well as those who opposed his crowd.  These ideological 
battles were being fought as the world reeled under the blows of 
fascism in the 1930s and '40s-- the modernist, pro-science faction 
(such as John Dewey and the refugee logical positivist philosophers) 
and the reactionary, obscurantist, turn-back-the-clock faction. I 
believe this conflict is documented in:

Reisch, George. How the Cold War Transformed Philosophy of Science. 
Cambridge University Press, 2005.

On the ideological development of anti-Semitism, see:

Bronner, Stephen Eric. A Rumor about the Jews: Antisemitism, 
Conspiracy, and the Protocols of Zion. New York: Oxford University 
Press, 2003. (1st ed., 2000) 
<http://www.loc.gov/catdir/enhancements/fy0614/2003048673-d.html>Publisher 
description. 
<http://www.loc.gov/catdir/enhancements/fy0614/2003048673-t.html>Table 
of contents.

H-Net review: Linda Maizels. 
"<http://www.h-net.org/reviews/showrev.cgi?path=141461079742078>Review 
of Stephen Eric Bronner, A Rumor about the Jews: Antisemitism, 
Conspiracy, and the Protocols of Zion," H-Judaic, H-Net Reviews, March, 2004.

On the politics of Enlightenment & Counter-Enlightenment:

Bronner, Stephen Eric. Reclaiming the Enlightenment: Toward a 
Politics of Radical Engagement. New York: Columbia University Press, 2004.


At 08:48 PM 10/29/2008, Jim Ryan wrote:
>Another entry in the long, strange saga of the (mis-)(ab-)use of 
>"Esperanto" by non-Esperantists to mean heaven knows what.
>
>This one is from a book I'm reading, A Great Idea at the Time: The 
>Rise, Fall and Curious Afterlife of the Great Books.  Great Books 
>scholar and booster Mortimer Adler is describing his own background 
>and temperament employing various contrasts, including:
>
>"Jewish and German by ancestry but anti-Semitic and Esperanto by nature."
>
>Huh?  In context, and knowing Adler, I think he means "not bound by 
>Jewish or German (or presumably any other) culture or traditions, 
>but rather international and cosmpolitan."
>
>But what a way to put it!  "Anti-Semitic and Esperanto"!  What an 
>ironic turn of phrase, especially given how Zamenhof was 
>intellectually nurtured by Jewish traditions, how he was a Yiddish 
>scholar as well as a general polyglot and linguist, and how 
>Homaranismo began as Hilelismo.  And how the Nazis persecuted 
>Esperanto as being a tool of the Jews, and how Zamenhof's children 
>died in concentration camps, etc. etc.  Esperanto was one of the 
>many gifts of Jewry to the world.
>
>"Anti-Semitic and Esperanto" is the most ridiculous pairing since 
>... well, I'll let you all supply better examples of rhetorical "odd 
>couples."
>
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From willcubbedge at gmail.com  Wed Oct 29 23:38:42 2008
From: willcubbedge at gmail.com (Will Cubbedge)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 23:38:42 -0400
Subject: [Membroj] Mort-al Foot in Mouth
In-Reply-To: <E1KvNtn-0001tK-5Z@elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <4909127F.3000208@cox.net>
	<E1KvNtn-0001tK-5Z@elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <38611A92-F606-45F1-A613-609ECE959092@gmail.com>

Your gutter language and your association of my Catholic fath with  
anti-semitism on a public Esperanto email list does not help the  
language any more than Adler's dumb use of the word Esperanto.

Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 30, 2008, at 12:08 AM, Ralph Dumain <rdumain at autodidactproject.org 
 > wrote:

> Thanks for the info. I should put this book on my reading list,  
> given my interest in intellectual history, including the history of  
> middlebrow culture and ideological conflict.  It's one more mark  
> against Adler as a first-class asshole. However non-literally one  
> interprets Adler's expression, it's pretty ridiculous. By  
> "Esperanto", even if Adler means not strictly national, he doesn't  
> go beyond the bounds of his fetish for what he thinks of as western  
> civilization. As for "anti-Semitic", Adler's affinity for  
> Catholicism, his hatred of the modern world, and his retrograde  
> ideology explains this expression completely. Jewishness has been  
> associated with hated modernity, rationalism, liberalism,  
> radicalism, and democracy at least since the latter part of the 19th  
> century, on the threshold of  a new stage of both capitalism and  
> anti-Semitism. That Adler would turn against the progressive ideals  
> of much of the Jewish intelligentsia explains his phraseology.  On  
> the other hand, the use of "Esperanto" in this way as an adjective  
> is not only ungrammatical, it goes contrary to Adler's organic  
> conservative ideology, which in his time would likely have  
> abominated Esperanto, which is arguably the progeny of the Jewish  
> Enlightenment (Haskalah).
>
> One must look at the role of Adler and his pals at the University of  
> Chicago, as well as those who opposed his crowd.  These ideological  
> battles were being fought as the world reeled under the blows of  
> fascism in the 1930s and '40s-- the modernist, pro-science faction  
> (such as John Dewey and the refugee logical positivist philosophers)  
> and the reactionary, obscurantist, turn-back-the-clock faction. I  
> believe this conflict is documented in:
>
> Reisch, George. How the Cold War Transformed Philosophy of Science.  
> Cambridge University Press, 2005.
>
> On the ideological development of anti-Semitism, see:
>
> Bronner, Stephen Eric. A Rumor about the Jews: Antisemitism,  
> Conspiracy, and the Protocols of Zion. New York: Oxford University  
> Press, 2003. (1st ed., 2000) Publisher description. Table of contents.
>
> H-Net review: Linda Maizels. " Review of Stephen Eric Bronner, A  
> Rumor about the Jews: Antisemitism, Conspiracy, and the Protocols of  
> Zion," H-Judaic, H-Net Reviews, March, 2004.
>
> On the politics of Enlightenment & Counter-Enlightenment:
>
> Bronner, Stephen Eric. Reclaiming the Enlightenment: Toward a  
> Politics of Radical Engagement. New York: Columbia University Press,  
> 2004.
>
>
> At 08:48 PM 10/29/2008, Jim Ryan wrote:
>> Another entry in the long, strange saga of the (mis-)(ab-)use of  
>> "Esperanto" by non-Esperantists to mean heaven knows what.
>>
>> This one is from a book I'm reading, A Great Idea at the Time: The  
>> Rise, Fall and Curious Afterlife of the Great Books.  Great Books  
>> scholar and booster Mortimer Adler is describing his own background  
>> and temperament employing various contrasts, including:
>>
>> "Jewish and German by ancestry but anti-Semitic and Esperanto by  
>> nature."
>>
>> Huh?  In context, and knowing Adler, I think he means "not bound by  
>> Jewish or German (or presumably any other) culture or traditions,  
>> but rather international and cosmpolitan."
>>
>> But what a way to put it!  "Anti-Semitic and Esperanto"!  What an  
>> ironic turn of phrase, especially given how Zamenhof was  
>> intellectually nurtured by Jewish traditions, how he was a Yiddish  
>> scholar as well as a general polyglot and linguist, and how  
>> Homaranismo began as Hilelismo.  And how the Nazis persecuted  
>> Esperanto as being a tool of the Jews, and how Zamenhof's children  
>> died in concentration camps, etc. etc.  Esperanto was one of the  
>> many gifts of Jewry to the world.
>>
>> "Anti-Semitic and Esperanto" is the most ridiculous pairing  
>> since ... well, I'll let you all supply better examples of  
>> rhetorical "odd couples."
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Membroj mailing list
> Membroj at esperantosocieto.org
> http://esperantosocieto.org/mailman/listinfo/membroj_esperantosocieto.org
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From rdumain at autodidactproject.org  Thu Oct 30 01:43:16 2008
From: rdumain at autodidactproject.org (Ralph Dumain)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 00:43:16 -0500
Subject: [Membroj] Mort-al Foot in Mouth
In-Reply-To: <38611A92-F606-45F1-A613-609ECE959092@gmail.com>
References: <4909127F.3000208@cox.net>
	<E1KvNtn-0001tK-5Z@elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<38611A92-F606-45F1-A613-609ECE959092@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E1KvPN7-0007wt-8A@elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

You quite obviously know nothing of history, for example of the 
period in which Adler was active.  The Catholic Church's historic 
crimes against the Jews (not to mention others) are well-known, so 
deal with it.  Secondly, it's one thing to be born into something and 
make the best of it, but conversion is entirely another matter.  A 
Jew converting to Catholicism, that is, to defect to his persecutors, 
is a turn to authoritarianism and the right.  A conversion to a more 
conservative and authoritarian denomination of the same religion 
might be comparable.  For example, a secular Jew turning 
orthodox.  Or a liberal Catholic joining the fascist Opus Dei.  That 
Esperanto is the creation of a member of a persecuted people is no 
accident, and if you can't be honest about history, you need to 
refrain from engaging in major discourse.

On another note, there have been several critiques of the Great Books 
program.  I can't put my finger on more than one. I recall only the 
first I ever read:

Macdonald, Dwight. "The Book-of-the-Millennium Club," in Against the 
American Grain: Essays on the Effects of Mass Culture (New York: 
Vintage Books, 1965), pp. 243-261.

There is a body of literature on intellectual popularization in the 
first half of the 20th century. I don't recall whether this book 
addresses the Great Books program, but here's an important reference:

Rubin, Joan Shelley. The Making of Middlebrow Culture. Chapel Hill: 
University of North Carolina Press, 1992.

I do not recall whether this noted author addresses the Great Books at all:

Cotkin, George. "Middle-Ground Pragmatists: The Popularization of 
Philosophy in American Culture," Journal of the History of Ideas, 
vol. 55, no. 2, April 1994, 283-302.


At 10:38 PM 10/29/2008, Will Cubbedge wrote:
>Your gutter language and your association of my Catholic fath with 
>anti-semitism on a public Esperanto email list does not help the 
>language any more than Adler's dumb use of the word Esperanto.
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From willcubbedge at gmail.com  Thu Oct 30 09:38:36 2008
From: willcubbedge at gmail.com (William A. Cubbedge)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 09:38:36 -0400
Subject: [Membroj] Mort-al Foot in Mouth
In-Reply-To: <E1KvPN7-0007wt-8A@elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <4909127F.3000208@cox.net>
	<E1KvNtn-0001tK-5Z@elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<38611A92-F606-45F1-A613-609ECE959092@gmail.com>
	<E1KvPN7-0007wt-8A@elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <a88a77720810300638v6d5179adj99d22700151a6e5c@mail.gmail.com>

I know enough about history to make the following two statements with
reasonable certitude:

1) The rash generalizations and ad hominem "arguments" you have made are a
sure sign that I am being baited by a bigot.  This fallacious tact is also
employed by the Anti-Semites I've run accross as a duckblind for their
ignorance. and, ironically, by you for what I assume to be the same reason.
I will not engage in an argument with a bigot, nor a wall, nor a cow, nor
any other unreasoning thing.

2) Esperanto was founded to increase understanding among disperate peoples.
You have brought a sectarian religous debate into a forum for Esperanto, and
in so doing, you have appropriated this little corner of the movement to
serve your selfish pursuit of rectitude.

Perhaps I got the Washington society all wrong.  Perhaps this sort of
anti-religious rhetoric is tolorated, or even encoruaged, by the membership.
I am an Esperanto neophyte, and you have sucsesfully chased me away from the
Washington society.  I have no interest in spending my free time in the
company of someone who lacks the self-control to put aside his anti-Catholic
partisanship for the sake of attracting others to Esperanto.

Will Cubbedge




On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 1:43 AM, Ralph Dumain <rdumain at autodidactproject.org
> wrote:

>  You quite obviously know nothing of history, for example of the period in
> which Adler was active.  The Catholic Church's historic crimes against the
> Jews (not to mention others) are well-known, so deal with it.  Secondly,
> it's one thing to be born into something and make the best of it, but
> conversion is entirely another matter.  A Jew converting to Catholicism,
> that is, to defect to his persecutors, is a turn to authoritarianism and the
> right.  A conversion to a more conservative and authoritarian denomination
> of the same religion might be comparable.  For example, a secular Jew
> turning orthodox.  Or a liberal Catholic joining the fascist Opus Dei.  That
> Esperanto is the creation of a member of a persecuted people is no accident,
> and if you can't be honest about history, you need to refrain from engaging
> in major discourse.
>
> On another note, there have been several critiques of the Great Books
> program.  I can't put my finger on more than one. I recall only the first I
> ever read:
>
> Macdonald, Dwight. "The Book-of-the-Millennium Club," in *Against the
> American Grain: Essays on the Effects of Mass Culture* (New York: Vintage
> Books, 1965), pp. 243-261.
>
> There is a body of literature on intellectual popularization in the first
> half of the 20th century. I don't recall whether this book addresses the
> Great Books program, but here's an important reference:
>
> Rubin, Joan Shelley. *The Making of Middlebrow Culture*. Chapel Hill:
> University of North Carolina Press, 1992.
>
> I do not recall whether this noted author addresses the Great Books at all:
>
> Cotkin, George. "Middle-Ground Pragmatists: The Popularization of
> Philosophy in American Culture," *Journal of the History of Ideas*, vol.
> 55, no. 2, April 1994, 283-302.
>
>
> At 10:38 PM 10/29/2008, Will Cubbedge wrote:
>
> Your gutter language and your association of my Catholic fath with
> anti-semitism on a public Esperanto email list does not help the language
> any more than Adler's dumb use of the word Esperanto.
>
>


-- 
William A. Cubbedge, J.D.
301-328-7761

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From ejl at gwu.edu  Thu Oct 30 10:45:53 2008
From: ejl at gwu.edu (E. James Lieberman)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 10:45:53 -0400
Subject: [Membroj] Mort-al Foot in Mouth
In-Reply-To: <a88a77720810300638v6d5179adj99d22700151a6e5c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4909127F.3000208@cox.net>
	<E1KvNtn-0001tK-5Z@elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<38611A92-F606-45F1-A613-609ECE959092@gmail.com>
	<E1KvPN7-0007wt-8A@elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<a88a77720810300638v6d5179adj99d22700151a6e5c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <B29CD5C4-33C6-421A-BC14-9BAE5C4A997D@gwu.edu>

Dear Will,
    I think Ralph's rough treatment of Adler was over the line,  
although I share a milder version of his viewpoint. In no way has he  
co-opted the Esperanto list, and your rebuttals are obviously sincere  
and appropriate. The history of Esperanto is replete with controversy,  
sometimes bitter. Same for the history of religion.
     Mi esperas ke vi kaj Ralph ambau restas viglaj kontribuantoj en  
la rondo.

Jim L


From rdumain at autodidactproject.org  Thu Oct 30 12:31:20 2008
From: rdumain at autodidactproject.org (Ralph Dumain)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 11:31:20 -0500
Subject: [Membroj] Board games with Esperanto names
Message-ID: <E1KvZUI-000279-SU@elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

I'm now updating my gameography of my games collection for the first 
time in 14 years. I am thus reminded of one, maybe two board games 
with Esperanto titles:

(1)


Batalo ["A delicate balance of power"] by Scott Harmon. Boulder, CO: 
Harmony Games. Inc., 1991.

Batalo by Scott Harmon. 2nd ed. Boulder, CO: Harmony Games, Inc., 
1993. [gift of author with letter thanking me for input on slight rules change]

(2)

Vagabondo. Leicester, UK: Invicta Games, 1979. #3191

I can't be certain that this name comes from Esperanto, but it's an 
Esperanto word.  The game rules are published in a variety of 
languages, including Arabic, but not in Esperanto, nor is there any 
mention of Esperanto.

Many many years ago I got paid for translating the rules of a couple 
board games into Esperanto. I don't know what good they'd do without 
the games themselves, but presumably I could look up these files and 
put the rules on my web site.

I also published an article, now outdated, on board games in Esperantujo:

"<http://www.autodidactproject.org/my/games-espo.html>Games in Esperanto-Land"
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From rdumain at autodidactproject.org  Thu Oct 30 14:25:18 2008
From: rdumain at autodidactproject.org (Ralph Dumain)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 13:25:18 -0500
Subject: [Membroj] Haskalah
Message-ID: <E1KvbQM-0003nR-3D@elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

A literature search for references linking Zamenhof and Esperanto to 
the Haskalah (Jewish Enlightenment) in Eastern Europe would be most 
interesting. I can't remember if I ever attempted this, since I do so 
much research and forget what I've done. I don't have time to hit the 
library, but I did check out the subject online.

The Jewish Virtual Library did not have anything substantial. There 
is, however, a mention of Zamenhof in the Okopower St. Jewish 
Cemetery of Warsaw:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/vjw/Warsaw.html

And apparently one or more poems by Shaul Tchernichovsky (1875-1943) 
exists in Esperanto translation (but not to be found on Don Harlow's site):

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/biography/tchernichovsky.html


The Nextbook site (there are many great Nextbook talks in DC, at the 
DC Jewish Community Center and elsewhere) has an article on Zamenhof, 
mentioning the Haskalah:

08.23.07
Dr. One-Who-Hopes
The ophthalmologist who invented Esperanto
by Suzanne Snider
http://www.nextbook.org/cultural/feature.html?id=678&page=1

Note this page on the Zamosc Ghetto:

http://www.deathcamps.org/occupation/zamosc%20ghetto.html

"Zamosc was a centre of the Jewish Enlightenment movement (Haskalah). 
Famous inhabitants: The writer I L Peretz, Ludwik Zamenhoff, the 
founder of Esperanto, and Rosa Luxemburg, the revolutionary socialist."

Bialystok has a rich history as well. See:

The Bialystoker Memorial Book
http://www.zchor.org/bialystok/yizkor1.htm

. . . and particularly:

Dr. M. Sudarski, 
<http://www.zchor.org/bialystok/yizkor2.htm#zamenhoff>Dr. Ludwig 
Zamenhof<http://www.zchor.org/bialystok/yizkor2.htm#zamenhoff> and Esperanto

Of parenthetical interest is:


Sochaczew, Poland (Pages 647- 669): Between The Two World Wars by M 
Frydman Translated by Jerrold Landau
http://www.jewishgen.org/yizkor/Sochaczew/so647.html

. . . which mentions both the Haskalah and an Esperanto group.

Thanks to Project Gutenberg, you can read or download

The Haskalah Movement in Russia by Jacob S. Raisin
http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/15921

. . . in which Zamenhof is mentioned in a footnote.




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From piateski at alum.mit.edu  Thu Oct 30 15:24:41 2008
From: piateski at alum.mit.edu (Erin Piateski)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 15:24:41 -0400
Subject: [Membroj] Mort-al Foot in Mouth
In-Reply-To: <B29CD5C4-33C6-421A-BC14-9BAE5C4A997D@gwu.edu>
References: <4909127F.3000208@cox.net>
	<E1KvNtn-0001tK-5Z@elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<38611A92-F606-45F1-A613-609ECE959092@gmail.com>
	<E1KvPN7-0007wt-8A@elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<a88a77720810300638v6d5179adj99d22700151a6e5c@mail.gmail.com>
	<B29CD5C4-33C6-421A-BC14-9BAE5C4A997D@gwu.edu>
Message-ID: <63a634da0810301224s49a9c224ma7c2b89ad8f7b9c1@mail.gmail.com>

Hi

I didn't really see anything exceptionally anti-Catholic in this
list's recent correspondence.  Every religion has skeletons in its
closet.  It's easy to find it in history.  Yes, we have historic
Catholic persecutions of Jews, the Spanish Inquisition, etc.  We also
have Protestant persecution of Catholics in England (and elsewhere),
Muslim persecution of Christians, going all the way back to the Bible,
where you will find what you might call Jewish persecution of pagans.
Simply mentioning a religion's history of persecuting another
religion, in my opinion, doesn't in any way impugn modern members of
that religion.  Speaking of fundamentalist Islam doesn't mean that the
speaker thinks that all Muslims are fundamentalist.  In the same vein,
speaking of a Catholic who has offensive views is not meant to be a
criticism of all Catholics - even if this person's views are informed
by (their personal interpretation of) Catholicism.

Let's all simmer down and not get offended, folks.  Let's try to
ascribe the best of motives to each other rather than the worst,
because we're all on the same side here.

Erin

2008/10/30 E. James Lieberman <ejl at gwu.edu>:
> Dear Will,
>    I think Ralph's rough treatment of Adler was over the line,
> although I share a milder version of his viewpoint. In no way has he
> co-opted the Esperanto list, and your rebuttals are obviously sincere
> and appropriate. The history of Esperanto is replete with controversy,
> sometimes bitter. Same for the history of religion.
>     Mi esperas ke vi kaj Ralph ambau restas viglaj kontribuantoj en
> la rondo.
>
> Jim L
>
> _______________________________________________
> Membroj mailing list
> Membroj at esperantosocieto.org
> http://esperantosocieto.org/mailman/listinfo/membroj_esperantosocieto.org
>


From ejl at gwu.edu  Thu Oct 30 16:50:16 2008
From: ejl at gwu.edu (E. James Lieberman)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 16:50:16 -0400
Subject: [Membroj] Haskalah
Message-ID: <E20E8B92-8BF8-445F-B3F4-287FEC76ED11@gwu.edu>

Many thanks for the references, Ralph.  For those who know or have yet  
to discover E. Privat's Vivo de Zamenhof: in 2007 a revised edition  
came out with detailed footnotes by Ulrich Lins.

Jim L
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From rdumain at autodidactproject.org  Thu Oct 30 18:31:37 2008
From: rdumain at autodidactproject.org (Ralph Dumain)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 17:31:37 -0500
Subject: [Membroj] Esperanto & 'relexification of Yiddish'
Message-ID: <E1Kvf6w-0002su-Jy@elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Many years ago, a childhood friend, Esperantist, linguist, and 
Yiddishist mentioned he came across references to Zamenhof in the 
history of Yiddish linguistics, due to Zamenhof's early interest in 
reforming Yiddish. I believe Zamenhof's project has been published in 
Esperanto, and I probably have it in my collection.

Anyway, here's a stray reference I stumbled upon:

-quote-

One can view the claim that Eastern European Ashkenazi settlers 
revived Hebrew in a Modern Israeli version as evidence of the 
thoroughness and planning in Zionist primordialism. Paul Wexler 
elucidates the politics behind the assertion in Two-tiered 
Relexification in Yiddish on p.3.


In the late nineteenth century, some East European Jewish 
nationalists, led by a Belarusian Jew, Eliezer ben Jehuda, proposed 
replacing almost the entire lexical component of their native Yiddish 
by Classical Hebrew phonetic strings, while a far smaller group of 
Yiddish speakers, likewise headed by a Belarusian Jew, Ludwik 
Zamenhof, simultaneously advocated the replacement of the Yiddish 
lexicon by a Latinoid lexicon of their own creation. The result of 
the former act of relexification (now spoken as a first or second 
language by over seven million Israeli Jews and Palestinian Arabs) is 
known universally as "Modern Hebrew"; the Jewish revivalists' choice 
of name for this type of "relexified Yiddish" was intended to foster 
the link with Classical Hebrew (which died out as a native language 
in approximately 200 A.D.) and thereby to strengthen a claim (which, 
otherwise, had almost no historical basis) to control Ottoman-British 
Palestine. The result of the second relexification act was Esperanto 
(on the Slavic or Yiddish grammar of the latter, see Goninaz 1974; 
Gold 1980; Piron 1982); Esperanto is the only "variant of Yiddish" to 
be spoken by a predominantly non-Jewish population.

-endquote-

Reference: Martillo, Joachim. "Issues and Questions In the 
Historiography of Pre-State Zionism," lecture, October 3, 2002.
http://www.wakeupfromyourslumber.com/node/7300
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From piateski at alum.mit.edu  Thu Oct 30 22:14:06 2008
From: piateski at alum.mit.edu (Erin Piateski)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 22:14:06 -0400
Subject: [Membroj] Esperanto & 'relexification of Yiddish'
In-Reply-To: <E1Kvf6w-0002su-Jy@elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <E1Kvf6w-0002su-Jy@elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <63a634da0810301914y99487d0rfa9a4a50e0305e37@mail.gmail.com>

Interesting ideas.

Although I studied Yiddish for two years in college, and I would
hardly say that Esperanto is relexified Yiddish.  I would also not say
that Modern Hebrew is relexified Yiddish.  Native speakers of Modern
Hebrew can read biblical texts with relative ease.  Although there are
some archaic verb forms that are no longer seen in Modern Hebrew, and
the vocabulary has changed somewhat, the fundamentals of the grammar
are the same (and vastly different, in my opinion, from the grammar of
Yiddish).

Erin Piateski

2008/10/30 Ralph Dumain <rdumain at autodidactproject.org>:
> Many years ago, a childhood friend, Esperantist, linguist, and Yiddishist
> mentioned he came across references to Zamenhof in the history of Yiddish
> linguistics, due to Zamenhof's early interest in reforming Yiddish. I
> believe Zamenhof's project has been published in Esperanto, and I probably
> have it in my collection.
>
> Anyway, here's a stray reference I stumbled upon:
>
> -quote-
>
> One can view the claim that Eastern European Ashkenazi settlers revived
> Hebrew in a Modern Israeli version as evidence of the thoroughness and
> planning in Zionist primordialism. Paul Wexler elucidates the politics
> behind the assertion in Two-tiered Relexification in Yiddish on p.3.
>
>
> In the late nineteenth century, some East European Jewish nationalists, led
> by a Belarusian Jew, Eliezer ben Jehuda, proposed replacing almost the
> entire lexical component of their native Yiddish by Classical Hebrew
> phonetic strings, while a far smaller group of Yiddish speakers, likewise
> headed by a Belarusian Jew, Ludwik Zamenhof, simultaneously advocated the
> replacement of the Yiddish lexicon by a Latinoid lexicon of their own
> creation. The result of the former act of relexification (now spoken as a
> first or second language by over seven million Israeli Jews and Palestinian
> Arabs) is known universally as "Modern Hebrew"; the Jewish revivalists'
> choice of name for this type of "relexified Yiddish" was intended to foster
> the link with Classical Hebrew (which died out as a native language in
> approximately 200 A.D.) and thereby to strengthen a claim (which, otherwise,
> had almost no historical basis) to control Ottoman-British Palestine. The
> result of the second relexification act was Esperanto (on the Slavic or
> Yiddish grammar of the latter, see Goninaz 1974; Gold 1980; Piron 1982);
> Esperanto is the only "variant of Yiddish" to be spoken by a predominantly
> non-Jewish population.
>
> -endquote-
>
> Reference: Martillo, Joachim. "Issues and Questions In the Historiography of
> Pre-State Zionism," lecture, October 3, 2002.
> http://www.wakeupfromyourslumber.com/node/7300
>
> _______________________________________________
> Membroj mailing list
> Membroj at esperantosocieto.org
> http://esperantosocieto.org/mailman/listinfo/membroj_esperantosocieto.org
>
>


From karl.pov at verizon.net  Thu Oct 30 22:16:16 2008
From: karl.pov at verizon.net (Charles Power)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 22:16:16 -0400
Subject: [Membroj] Mort-al Foot in Mouth
References: <415075.1172601225376037999.JavaMail.javamailuser@localhost>
	<a88a77720810300746h5f6f2cc8g7aa9c70ae7ff29b8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <EA64F6E4FCA5438DAC3B88F5C1194569@homebb159cb242>

If Ralph is bigoted about anything, he may have a slight bigotry against conservatism, which in the European tradition (much less in the American) has been linked to antisemitism. I don't see that Ralph sees Catholicism and antisemitism as inseperable (as Daniel J. Goldhagen, for instance, seems to), but he is simply aware of Catholicism's very dodgy history on the matter. I wasn't aware this was a particularly controversial matter.

As for Adler, I wonder whether this co-founder of the Great Books of the Western World was simply expressing his preference for works from Europe and America over the great Semitic writings, the Bible and the Quran. Maybe he really did mean anti-Semitism (as opposed to antisemitism, a form of Jew-hatred), opposition to the cultures found together with the Semitic languages....
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: William A. Cubbedge 
  To: Charles R.L. Power 
  Sent: Thursday, 30 October 2008 10:46 AM
  Subject: Re: [Membroj] Mort-al Foot in Mouth


  Mr. Power,

  Yours is a reasonable argument based on the presentation of evidence, and I have no problem with that.  I have a problem more with what Mr. Dumain did not offer (a basis for his screed or a logical exposition of his proposition that Catholicism is so closely connected with Antisemitism as to be inseparable) than what he did offer (which isn't much more than the same old bunk and moonshine I've been given by most anti-Catholics in my life.)  I  tolerate the company of reasoning people, whether or not they agree with me.  I cannot tolorate a bigot, be he an anti-Catholic bigot, an anti-Semitic bigot, an athiestic bigot, or elsewise.  

  And the Pope to whom you refer was St. Pius X, but his syllybus was not a list of general maxims, rather, it was a list of previosu condemnations of the underlying anti-religous suppositions that supported acts of revolutionary regimes in certain European countries (France in particular) that denied the rights of the Church and the rights of concious of Catholics.  The Syllabus should not be read or interperated outside of this context as it was by the Protestant barnburners in the United States when it was published against Catholic participation in democracy.

  Yorus Truly,
  Will Cubbedge


  On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 10:13 AM, Charles R.L. Power <vze3m7md at verizon.net> wrote:

    I'd say that yes, we tolerate anti-religious rhetoric. Ralph is a very opinionated guy and also one of the most knowledgeable about intellectual history I've ever known. Religions are collections of ideas, and ideas can be good or bad. Some of the ideas the Catholic Church has held through its long history are now recognized as not completely correct nor even very decent. For example, what one pope called the Syllabus of Errors is largely a collection of core beliefs of a tolerant, democratic society. Personally, as an unbeliever born into the Catholic Church, I have mixed feelings about its history. My feelings are relatively unmixed about another religion, Islam, and I wouldn't rule out the idea of a lecture in Esperanto sometime about why I consider Islam to be a dangerous religion for a tolerant society, though others would be free to tell me I'm full of it as well. This is the sense in which I think toleration is good -- tolerating ideas with which we disagree. 



    On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at  9:38 AM, William A. Cubbedge wrote:


    I know enough about history to make the following two statements with reasonable certitude: 


    1) The rash generalizations and ad hominem "arguments" you have made are a sure sign that I am being baited by a bigot.  This fallacious tact is also employed by the Anti-Semites I've run accross as a duckblind for their ignorance. and, ironically, by you for what I assume to be the same reason.  I will not engage in an argument with a bigot, nor a wall, nor a cow, nor any other unreasoning thing. 


    2) Esperanto was founded to increase understanding among disperate peoples.  You have brought a sectarian religous debate into a forum for Esperanto, and in so doing, you have appropriated this little corner of the movement to serve your selfish pursuit of rectitude.  


    Perhaps I got the Washington society all wrong.  Perhaps this sort of anti-religious rhetoric is tolorated, or even encoruaged, by the membership. I am an Esperanto neophyte, and you have sucsesfully chased me away from the Washington society.  I have no interest in spending my free time in the company of someone who lacks the self-control to put aside his anti-Catholic partisanship for the sake of attracting others to Esperanto. 


    Will Cubbedge 





    On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 1:43 AM, Ralph Dumain < rdumain at autodidactproject.org> wrote: 
    You quite obviously know nothing of history, for example of the period in which Adler was active.  The Catholic Church's historic crimes against the Jews (not to mention others) are well-known, so deal with it.  Secondly, it's one thing to be born into something and make the best of it, but conversion is entirely another matter.  A Jew converting to Catholicism, that is, to defect to his persecutors, is a turn to authoritarianism and the right.  A conversion to a more conservative and authoritarian denomination of the same religion might be comparable.  For example, a secular Jew turning orthodox.  Or a liberal Catholic joining the fascist Opus Dei.  That Esperanto is the creation of a member of a persecuted people is no accident, and if you can't be honest about history, you need to refrain from engaging in major discourse. 


    On another note, there have been several critiques of the Great Books program.  I can't put my finger on more than one. I recall only the first I ever read: 


    Macdonald, Dwight. "The Book-of-the-Millennium Club," in Against the American Grain: Essays on the Effects of Mass Culture (New York: Vintage Books, 1965), pp. 243-261. 


    There is a body of literature on intellectual popularization in the first half of the 20th century. I don't recall whether this book addresses the Great Books program, but here's an important reference: 


    Rubin, Joan Shelley. The Making of Middlebrow Culture . Chapel Hill: University of North Carolina Press, 1992. 


    I do not recall whether this noted author addresses the Great Books at all: 


    Cotkin, George. "Middle-Ground Pragmatists: The Popularization of Philosophy in American Culture," Journal of the History of Ideas , vol. 55, no. 2, April 1994, 283-302. 



    At 10:38 PM 10/29/2008, Will Cubbedge wrote: 
    Your gutter language and your association of my Catholic fath with anti-semitism on a public Esperanto email list does not help the language any more than Adler's dumb use of the word Esperanto.  




    -- 
    William A. Cubbedge, J.D. 
    301-328-7761 


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  -- 
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  301-328-7761

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From volcheck at acm.org  Fri Oct 31 00:06:27 2008
From: volcheck at acm.org (Emil Volcheck)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 00:06:27 -0400
Subject: [Membroj] Doodle.com
Message-ID: <4894ffc60810302106q535a202aq24c0b72f709f1410@mail.gmail.com>

Jen nova retpagho Doodle.com
por plani eventojn kaj krei demandilojn
senpage:

http://www.Doodle.com/  .

Oni povas uzi Esperanton (el
pli ol 20 lingvoj).  Mi uzis Doodle hodiau,
kaj ghi funkcias bone.

--Emil